Armor and Egos

The internet is full of egos

I wanted to discuss something that I tested with quite a bit of success this weekend, however there was a thread up on MainTankadin which bothered me enough that I need to address it prior to continuing on. Most of the contributors to MainTankadin are very civil and reasonable people who like to discuss tank gearing, mechanics, and philosophies based off the the scientific method, e.g. I have a theory, I test said theory, and I provide data to support conclusions surrounding said theory. Well this past weekend we had a new member from the warrior community, JamesVZ who decided that numbers, facts, and data are not necessary to prove a point.

This person claims that if you have been tanking for 5+ years, that stamina sucks, armor is king, and all of the theories on gearing and stat prioritization that Theck has worked so hard on are false, and that Theck is just posting lots of numbers to stroke his internet ego. Well I was two pages into the discussion before MT went down and I have yet to see a single shred of a legitimate argument from the original poster. His arguments are full of heresy and lacking any sort of data driven conclusions. He furthermore does not understand the concepts for which the new Total Effective Health formula and concept should be applied.

In the end, he comes off as pompous and egotistical, as well as uneducated as he has based his accusations on less than all the facts, and has yet to back them up with evidence to counter our general beliefs on gearing. While I assume that 90% of everyone who reads this has been to MainTankadin and contributed in one form or another, I feel that it should be emphasized that these arguments are quite baseless and childish in that they simply seem to be for the fact that the poster wants to yell at the wind.

Blood Queen and Armor

Unfortunately I wanted to talk about how awesome armor is for particular fights, but this dilettante seems to have overshadowed my thoughts on this subject. I was thinking about Blood Queen and the best way to mitigate incoming damage for both myself, and the damage I do to the off tank, and it occured to me that either avoidance or armor would be the best course of action.

My motivation for reducing damage was so that the healers could focus on the raid as much as possible, as it is a very healing intensive fight. After looking at our parses from the 25 man attempts, I decided that the amount of damage that was coming in would better be mitigated by armor. I set up a gear set of my best effective health gear, and then swapped out what I had to wear the Cataclysmic Chest, Guantlets of the Kraken, Pillars of Might, Unidentifiable Organ, and Glyph of Indomitability. I was buffed to the teeth with bonus armor, and still sitting in a comfortable position with respect to my health pool.

If you look at this parse where we wiped (yeah we sucked last Tuesday), you can see that the average hit size I took was 22k.

Now if you look at the damage from a fight with a different gear set, one that increased the amount of armor by ~7k, I took an average of 18k damage. These are unmitigated hits. Most hits had absorbs and blocks added to them. There was a relative damage decrease of 19%. That is quite siginficant. Now once you incorporate those numbers into the fact that you have actually reduced incoming damage by 6k and not just 3k, it becomes much more obvious that armor is a very powerful stat for this boss.

While this is only one instance of the application of armor and its relative benefits, it is a powerful one. As we double our benefits based off of blood mirror, this is a perfect example of a fight where armor is extremely powerful. This will however, not translate into armor being king on other fights. In conclusion, if you understand the mechanics of the fight and tailor a gear set to augment your ability to perform to the best of your ability during said fight, you will be a better tank and a better player as a result. There is no end all be all for gear, each encounter will have different mechanics which will make that BiS set better or worse.

Oh and don’t be a douche, it is really just not worth it, rise above antagonistic pre pubescent teens who feel they need to exert a force for which they do not have.


10 Responses to “Armor and Egos”

  1. 1 Morlin
    January 26, 2010 at 10:44 pm

    You know, I was having a discussion with my new guildies last night about tankadin gearing philosophies, and it seems they’ve gone completely against the generally accepted tankadin gearing/talent/gemming/enchanting strategies. The top geared player in my new guild is a pally tank, but his talents and gear puzzle me. The guild master says he’s easy to heal, though he’s got:

    2/5 Divinity
    5/5 Benediction
    2/2 Spiritual Attunement
    0/2 Vindication
    0/2 Judgments of the Just
    0/2 Pursuit of Justice (and no speed increase to boots)
    5/5 Seals of the Pure
    0/3 Crusade

    Gem-wise, he’s got 2x +20 Parry Gems, 3x +20 Dodge Gems, a +20 Expertise Gem and an Expertise/Stam gem. Not only that, but the straight Expertise Gem is in a yellow socket. His enchants include Defense to Shield and Cloak, Armsman to Gloves, and +10 stats to Chest.

    Another guildie tankadin has the following…and even says she has problems with mana and threat:

    2/5 Seals of the Pure
    5/5 Divinity
    2/2 Spiritual Attunement (and the glyph!)
    0/2 Judgments of the Just
    5/5 Benediction
    0/2 Vindication
    0/2 Pursuit of Justice (and no speed increase to boots)
    0/3 Crusade

    Enchants: unenchanted helm, +10 stats to chest, armsman to gloves, haste to cloak, blade ward, titanium shield spike.
    Gems: x6(!) +20 parry gems (including one in a blue socket!), only 2x JC stamina gems, and even a haste/stamina gem!

    I really want to help my fellow guildie tankadins “be all they can be”. They haven’t even considered the possibility of multiple gear sets. They seem to have been completely misinformed about so many things. They say dodge is horrible now, that parry is better, and having more avoidance (via parry) is better than having lots of stamina/EH. Even though I’m not raiding as much on my paladin (I’ve been spending more time on the hunter), and I’m not one of the main tanks in my new guild, I want to use my experience, knowledge, and research of the tankadin community at-large to help my guild and its tanks be the very best (that no one ever was…to catch them is my real test, to train them is my cause…okay I’ll stop now). I’ve thought of writing an extensive post on our guildlaunch forums but I think things have been said and proven better on Maintankadin and on your blog, Wrathy. I just wish I could have the patience to sift through posts and pages of threads to direct them to the exact numbers and conclusions that prove that they could be doing so much better. They really are good people and excellent players, but it just seems that they’ve been the victims of misinformation and/or hearsay.

  2. 2 Vorian87
    January 27, 2010 at 12:57 am

    Maintankadin has several stickies on the most optimal gear enchants and Wrathy has even posted a thread (stickied) that discusses multiple gear sets and how to gem/enchant those.

    And going off the information that you have provided, your fellow paladin tanks seem severely misinformed.

    One thing I would suggest is that you do indeed go ahead and write a multi-part guide to paladin tanking that draws on the information available from maintankadin – covering the basic 53/18 spec and glyphs, gemming and enchanting, and descriptions of tanking stats and how they affect the tank and so on.

    All the information you need is available in its entirety on maintankadin and bloggers like Wrathy and Rhidach (rhida.ch is the blog) have guides of their own that you can reference.

    Good luck.

  3. 3 Selyndia
    January 27, 2010 at 7:44 am

    I had been following the thread you are referencing on Maintankadin since it started, and honestly it reeks of a troll that wants to devalue the work Theck has put in, and this belief is for several reasons:

    First, the account was created at almost the exact same time as several other ones were, all on Monday shortly before 10 AM, and all have been doing the same thing. Some more blatant (One was a thread that simply posted a link of Theck’s armory wearing the Key to mock him, that had been subsequently locked).

    Second, in the thread itself, despite the discussion on armor, the individual JamesVZ had posted in five of his six initial posts mentioning the Key and insulting anyone who bought it, despite no one actually saying anything about the Key itself (As opposed to just ridiculing Stamina trinkets in general, such Scarab/Vitality).

    Third, on page eight now, there are still no actual numbers to back the veracity of his claim despite nearly twenty posts.

    Fourth, the insistence that everyone but him is wrong despite having numbers shown to him. The ignoring of evidence and the un-willfulness of even considering an opinion contrary to the one presented.

    Fifth, throughout the bulk of the posts, most of them included ad hominem attacks, and many leveled directly at Theck.

    The end result is that it is either a troll that is being allowed to both run rampant and heckle those that are putting in serious work or it’s someone whose arrogance and self importance is so high that they believe they can walk into another forum and essentially declare “If you aren’t doing it my way, you’re stupid.”

    Now, on to the actual discussion you posted, what set up did you use to gain nearly 7000 armor over having 2 armor trinkets and the badge/crafted armor pieces? I’m trying to think of various pieces of gear that have that much armor, but I come up short.

    • January 27, 2010 at 8:02 am

      Well, The Unreliable Organ and the Glyph of Indomitability together are 3682 extra armor. The Cataclysmic Chestguard’s another 1200. The badge belt and wrists would yield another 1200. That’s assuming that it was replacing 264 level gear, which I’m fairly certain a good chunk of it was still 258 gear.

      • 5 Selyndia
        January 27, 2010 at 8:54 am

        I might have been misreading it; I was under the assumption that the 7k extra armor was on top of the Organ/Glyph/Chest/Pillars/Gloves, which is what had me a bit baffled.

        I can see where two trinkets, Chest, Legs, Gloves, Cloak, Belt and Weapon can all pass it.

      • 6 Wrathy
        January 27, 2010 at 12:08 pm

        No, the 7k change was swapping out T9.258 for the Cata Chest, Kraken gloves, and Pillars, plus dual armor trinkets. While there is a significant amount of magic damage being thrown around, it is at 2k a tick, which is less than 5% of any burst damage. This is a fight where mitigation is king because of the fact that you will not only be mitigating your damage but the damage of the other tank. I only feel comfortable with having dual armor trinkets because of the fact that she does not hit that hard.

  4. 7 Carabas
    January 27, 2010 at 7:52 am

    Thanks Wrathy, really helping post. Gearing up different set is pretty much seen as “lootwhoring” and, since my guild uses an EPGP method for drops is difficult to get different sets. At the moment I’m running with Cat/Pillars/Verdigris and I’m pretty satisfied with them, I’ll eventually pick up some tier gear (still my Officers do not understand why I’m not starting with a full tier set…), but maybe later when Frost Emblem won’t be a problem anymore

  5. January 27, 2010 at 5:45 pm

    Well, the big question I would have would be the relative merit of a max avoidance set versus a max armor for the BQL tank. It’s pretty apparent that the OT should be going sponge stamina, but that’s just going to cause further problems if the MT does it as well.

    • 9 Wrathy
      January 27, 2010 at 5:55 pm

      I thought about this first, but one of the problems of avoidance is that it creates unpredictable damage which spikes and scares healers. As this fight is already very healing intensive, the mechanics of Blood Mirror and an avoidance tank would give your paladin healers heart attacks. Now not only one tank but two are taking major spike damage. While I agree that you may reduce the overall damage taken by avoiding a significant amount of swings, at the same time you are making it harder on your healers. Healing 12-8k on a tank who raid buffs up to 56k isn’t a problem, nor is healing 22k spikes on one who buffs up to 60k, however i see it being a problem when both tanks take a 22k hit at an unpredictable rate, and get the inevitable rng of back to back 22k hits dropping them way down.

  6. January 29, 2010 at 11:42 pm

    Wow Wrathy – im glad that you posted that armor thread in your blog. i read maintankadin almost daily, but missed that thread!

    holy crap does that guy have an ego problem

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s


  • What is this nonsense? HoPo and a total overhaul. It's going to be a long weekend of playing around.. 8 years ago



%d bloggers like this: