Archive for November, 2009


In response to Survey Link Love

For Rhidach and Honors –

I have seen these questionnaire throughout the blogging network over the past few weeks, and I am ashamed to say that I have half heartedly skimmed over the healing ones. Now that there is a tanking one, I actually read the whole thing, however as I expect most people to skim this one as well, this is for Rhidach and Honors…


What is the name, class, and spec of your primary tank?

Wrathy, Paladin, Protection dual spec (0/53/18 and 0/54/17). Yeah I know, I am a tank-a-holic. The secondary spec has always been saved for gimmick fights. It was originally my general spec with Benediction and a few other tricks up the sleeve, now it is for Anub’arak hard mode, with imp hammer, imp hands, and my Holy Wrath and HoTR glyphs.

What is your usual tanking environment?

25 man Trial of the Grand Crusade, however I run 10 man Ony, ToTC, and ToTGC, and 25 man Ony, and ToTC as well.

What is your favorite encounter to tank, and why?

This is a very tough question, and I am probably going to deviate from the true intention of this question, seeing as the question was written in the time of Wrath of the Lich King, however my favorite encounter of all time to tank was Huhuran. Call me Old School, and even call me a warrior at the time, but there was something about a non tauntable mob that you had to ping pong between two tanks that just screams pure professional execution. This was one of the most satisfying encounters to tank of all time when we were 60. I know that this is kind of cheating, and at the time, the Horde did not have paladins, so I was doing it all with Heroic Strike and Shield Slam, but it will always stick out in my mind.

If I am not allowed to cheat, then I would have to say add tank on sarth 3d. Really it came down to running around like a chicken with your head cut off, picking up adds. I did it better than any other tank we had, and I was proud of that.

What is your least favorite encounter to tank, and why?

Anub’arak 25 man Hard Mode, until he is dead. But in all honesty, something like main tanking XT, where all you do is stand there, and threat isn’t really an issue at all. Boring, not challenging, and overall underwhelming.

What do you think is the biggest strength of your class, and why?

“We’re pretty hard to kill. Between AD, our Guardian Spirit effect, LoH, DP, etc., I tend to be the last one standing during any wipe.” – Rhidach.

Yeah I cheated, but I did not get the rule book. I have to say that our ability to be unhittable with holy shield, combined with the ardent defender mechanics make us a very powerful effective health tank that can take one hell of a beating.

What do you think is the biggest weakness of your class, and why?

Lack of closure. The one thing that I do not like about our class is our lack of interrupt and ability to close the gap. Charge, Intercept, and Intervene are a very potent combination. Death Grip is similarly convenient when trying to close the gap on a mob that is running away or casting something nasty. The combination of some sort of interrupt or gap closure would make us complete in my eyes. I know that we have our Avenger’s Shield, but I don’t trust that nearly as much as I trust charge.

In a 25 man raiding environment, what do you feel is the best tanking assignment for you?

I feel that I can do anything in a 25 man raiding environment, and I actually have served as both main tank and off tank for all of the current encounters. If I had to chose one role, I truly enjoy being the main tank. The knowledge of the encounter coupled with a mastery of the abilities at hand are powerful tools, and the puzzle that you have to put together when it comes to what cool down for what ability is one of the most enjoyable experiences in the game for me.

What tanking class do you enjoy tanking with the most?

Really I don’t think this question can be properly answered. I have preferences on the people that I would like to tank with, but what class they play is really irrelevant to my enjoyment. I have tanked progression fights next to all of the other three classes and enjoyed the experience equally. If I had to pick, I like having a warrior there for commanding shout, sunders, and demo shout on the adds as necessary, however those are more conveniences from a raid leader perspective.

What tanking class do you enjoy tanking with the least?

See previous question.

What is your worst habit as a tank?

Clicking to pick up adds. I have always been a tank or a healer, and have never mastered the art of tab targeting. I use enemy face plates and I click them to pick them up. Two adds, no problem, three getting tough, four or more, not gonna happen, good luck with the mob in your face…

What is your biggest pet peeve in a group environment while tanking?

This one is going to go back to the good old days once again. I am a pretty laid back guy on my paladin, and with respect to tanking, I don’t get frustrated easily, however when I was a warrior, I could not stand people thinking that they could tank something for me, or that a threat meter was simply a suggestion. When I was level 66 on my warrior, I was in a Setthek Halls, and there were two rogues that were pulling off me constantly. Their response to me requesting that they wait until I was done establishing aggro was: “Don’t worry dude, I can tank this one by myself.” Needless to say, the next day I had a level one Paladin Alt named Wrathy, and I was going to be a healer.

Do you feel your class/spec is balanced with respect to the other tanking classes?

Yes and No. Yes in the case that we each have our day in the sun, and we each bring a different strength to the table. If theses strengths are leveraged correctly, your tanking corps will be extremely powerful. I think that we are fairly well balanced, and we mitigate damage very well. No in the respect that we are not given enough control over our own cool downs. Ardent Defender is a passive effect that is considered a survival cool down. We do not have a last stand or a health regeneration talent like the other tanks. In the same respect, we have Ardent defender, and Lay on Hands, two very powerful but extremely situational tools. P.S. Blizzard, leave me the way I am, I like it here…

What tools do you use to evaluate your own performance as a tank?

World of Logs, Eavesdrop, and Recount. I use recount on a fight by fight basis to evaluate what is going on, as well as Eavsedrop (which is a modified combat log). I spend quite a bit of time analyzing World of Logs the day after a raid to see what I can do differently, and even modify gear sets based on the numbers.

What do you think is the biggest misconception that people have with your tanking class?

“It’s easy mode. While Paladins in general tend to require less effort (we have no equivalent of Revenge/Rune Strike, like I mentioned) to tank successfully, any form of tanking is still pretty hard. With Paladin tanking it may be easy to be mediocre, but the spec is difficult to master.” – Rhidach

I can’t say it any better. However, I feel that as long as an excellent tank can understand the mechanics of another class, they can tank just as well on any of the four. Tanking is more about situational or environmental awareness and not how to optimally use the 969 rotation. And with respect to Revenge and Runestrike, a DK or warrior is lying to you if they tell you that it is hard to use this ability. They should be bound  in macros to their most common ability. All the classes have pretty easy rotations when it comes to tanking, but the rotation is only a very small part of the whole picture of being a main tank.

What do you think is the toughest thing for new players of your class to learn about tanking?

The utility. Any tank can sit there and pound out a 969 rotation, any tank can hold threat with out even using that, however it takes a while to get used to your utility spells, hands, cleanse, etc. Holding aggro is not difficult, preventing damage, mitigating damage, and using your utility takes a lot of practice.

If someone were to evaluate your tanking ability via tools like fraps, recount, and World of Logs, what tendencies would they notice?

If they watched a fraps video of my tanking, they would probably get sick. I move the camera around A LOT to see what is going on in the encounter. They would also barely be able to see my toon, as I use a macro to zoom out a long distance to see more. I am a visual guy, and I love to know what is going on around me so that I can react to it. Recount would show them that even though i have 53 hit, sometimes even 25 (LOL accuracy enchant), I am still giving the dps a run for their money. And, World of Logs would show them I am an avoidance and mitigation junkie.

Stamina or Avoidance, and why?

Is this question even necessary? I would hope that everyone that this reaches knows my stance on the Great Debate of 2009. When the dust settled and Meloree walked away with a glistening trophy of victory called Chill of the Throne, I conceded. So the answer to this question is most definitely YES. Avoidance outside of ICC, Stamina on my progression set. I am going to spare everyone the long winded debate on the subject, but if you are craving more, and when I mean more, I mean you just got to work and want to kill 8 hours before you go home, then scroll down the blog and read away.

Which tanking class do you understand the least?

I am going to have to go with the Bear. As much as I wold like to think that I understand enough about all of the different tanking classes to be a good Tank leader in our guild, I am a bit fuzzy when it comes to the nuts and bolts of druid tanks. I believe that the reasoning behind this is two fold. I had a roommate that was one of our main tanks from SSC/TK days through Mu’ru, and I lean on him any time that we need to make decisions regarding the bear.

I currently play a paladin and consider myself fairly up to speed on the theory and practical application of our abilities and role, so that one is taken care of. I tanked on a warrior for all of pre-BC. Now while I know that most of you will say that warrior tanking has drastically changed since then, well you are right. And, when it came time to light a fire under one of our tanks that was, shall we politely say, less than qualified to be a MT, I hopped back on my warrior, beat on a target dummy for an hour and a half, and then tought our Warrior MT how to play his class. DK’s are half and half. I have a dk that I leveled to a whopping 77, however my best friend plays a DK tank and his computer screen is a solid 2 feet away from mine, so I see a lot and we discuss even more.

What addons or macros do you currently use to aid you in tanking?

I have recently switched from DBM to DXE, due to the shadow strike timers on P3 of Anub’arak being off on DBM, and I have liked what I see, so I use DXE. I also use recount, Eavesdrop (modified combat log), Satrina Buff Frames so that my debuffs are nice and central to my viewing pane, Power Auras, Class Timers, Omni CoolDown Count, Pitbull for focus and debuff clarifications, and most importantly now a blizzard staple, the equipment manager. If you ever raid with me, you can see me swap out gear for almost every pull. In Ulduar I probably switched gear sets no less that 15 to 20 times, now in ToTC, it is a bit different, but you will see me going back to acting like a girl trying to figure out what to wear on her first date when we hit Icecrown Citadel.

Do you strive for a balance in tanking stats, or do you stack some higher than others, and why?

Please reference the Stamina versus Avoidance debate once again. I am one of the most vocal supporters of balance over stamina. I love the fact that I can sit with a little less health and more mitigation and avoidance than the others. Once again, I will not beat a dead horse, balance over stacking any day of the week (minus ICC patch day).


What is a Main Tank?

As most of the Paladin community is up in arms about the Lay on Hands changes that have been announced by the devs, I want to take some time to discuss something a bit different today. However, I will add a short blurb on my opinions on the change, and even though I have my reservations I agree with adgamorix over at Divine Plea, here is my take on the issue of the week:

…Exo and LoH are icing on the cake for us, they are not core talents that we need to survive. They are not getting rid of holy shield because rogues cant kill us in BGs, they are taking a utility spell away from us. Where I do agree with the voice of the community is that i feel it is unfair for a holy paladin to be able to tamper with our use of cool downs. Healers do not manage our cool downs for us, we do that on our own, and if LoH gives us Forbearance, we are not able to manage our incoming damage any more.

Definition of a Main Tank

Clarification: After a few of you posted your thoughts on this, I waned to provide a clarification to the definition of Main Tank. This is a philosophy and not a specific person. Our guild has two main tanks, two off tanks (dps with full 245 tank gear), and a few more casual main spec tanks with 245/258 gear. Although I think that my perspective comes from a progression guild, I believe that a true “main tank” can have these qualities while being casual and just neglecting the attendance factor.

I’m stealin your pic Rhidach

Main Tanking Is Lonely

There is an interesting discussion up on the MainTankadin forums regarding tanking instances and content that you don’t want to do. The break down of the initial post, that has sparked quite a debate regarding the duties of a main tank, is that a tank was asked to do an Ulduar 10 to go do Algalon, and he did not want to do it. The short and sweet of his complaint is that he does not want to have to do old content on a non raid night, and as such refused to go. The more difficult part of his initial post was the fact that he said that he was willing to bring his alt in to do it, as his main did not need any gear.

While I agree and disagree with his initial statement regarding raiding on an off night, I also see the underlying issue with his offer to bring an alt to the Algalon encounter. By refusing to bring your main, who happens to be the main tank of the guild, and instead bringing your alt, you are forfeiting your right to the title of main tank. A few pages into the thread, there was an interesting post regarding the definition of main tank, and all of the lovely things that come along with it. I thought that I would provide my own insight into what it takes to be a main tank, and why only certain people have the attitude, personality and propensity to pull it off.

Main tanks are the focal point of a raid, and as such they are scrutinized under a magnifying glass from first pull to the end of the raid. We are responsible for the welfare of each and every person in the raid, and we are the type of person that must step up and take accountability for any and all actions. The main tank uses more consumables, flasks, elixirs, and personal food than any one else in the raid. Main tanks know more about each encounter and each ability with in that encounter than anyone else in the raid, because they are expected to learn the details of encounters ahead of time, so that they can react to the dynamic environment of a progression encounter. They are expected to have 100% raid attendance, and nothing less is acceptable.

While some of you may disagree with this statement, the opportunity to receive gear ahead of everyone else in the guild means that your toon is not your own, its the guilds, and they have the right to use it when ever they want. Main tanks should be the first person in the raid, and the last to leave, the first to pull and the last to die, and you need to do it with out ever complaining to the masses.

Zothor summed it up very eloquently as such:

…I read an excellent guide (that I wish i could find right now) that had the following advice for people thinking about becoming tanks: Don’t. Simply put, tanks have by far the most pressure on them of any raid role because they’re always pivotal to the action. A tank has more ways to screw up than any other role. A tank cannot, under any circumstances, be cheap about enchants, gems, or even the slightest upgrade if he wishes to get respect from his guild and not be replaced by someone who’s hungrier. To be a quality tank, you have to want to be the best. You have to have that bloodlust.

More will be expected of you as a tank than any other raider. Whether or not this is fair is entirely irrelevant; it is a fact of tanking…. If the tank dies, it will be assumed it is because he’s not geared enough, even if he went 10 seconds without a heal. It simply doesn’t matter. You will be blamed.

My personal motivation and last nights observations

I wanted to talk about this because I noticed some problems with our raid last night, and it dawned on me that even though I am in an excellent guild, I still do not raid with 25 people that share this mentality (sure the vast majority of our core raid does, but there are still outliers in any guild, save the best of the best). Our guild decided to skip out on everything but ToTGC last night. We set the raid to 25 man Heroic and that was the only thing we did for 4 hours last night. Through out the course of the raid, people were going afk, having quiet, and not so quiet breakdowns, and we were generally not the cohesive and elite guild that we usual were.

Northrend Beasts through Twins was business as usual, and save a very very unlucky mass disconnect of 6 dps right when the opposite color shield popped up at 25% on twins, we one shot everything. Smooth, easy, and predictable. One of our priests posted a suggestion to change up our positioning strategy on Anub’arak last night, and after some deliberation on the guild forums, I was convinced that the idea had merit. Honestly, we were not re-inventing the wheel, we were just using what most three tanks strats do, and moving form one permafrost to two.

This change was met with much resistance from our dps and the other off tank, and while it solved most of the problems we have been encountering it was not embraced by the other add tank or some of our top dps. In the end, after a few attempts, we reverted back to our old strat and we saw p3 consistently. However, as those of you who have seen p3 or killed Anub know, the fight is nothing until p3. Our problems were never the same, and as a result, peoples frustrations started rising to the top. I feel that as one of the off tanks and interrupters of shadow strike, I shoulder a great deal of the responsibility of this encounter. I was more than willing to take accountability for any wipe that was even remotely my fault, and I did so with a fair amount of restraint and honesty.

While the guild as a whole is progressing, and Anub’arak’s health is dropping lower and lower with each week of attempts, I feel that some people do not share the same sense of accountability. What it comes down to for us is as follows: people needed to step up, and most of them did. But for Anub’arak, it is not sufficient for most people to step up, everyone has to. I feel that I have the correct balance of confidence, accountability, and a bit of cockiness when it comes to my tanking, and it serves me well. I don’t, however, have the tools that are necessary to bring others to my level, and that is really what was missing last night. We are, close to the end of the road when it comes to this encounter, however all the pieces have not fallen into place, and as a main tank, it is my repsonsibilty to make up for others short comings. As of today, I have not made up enough for what is lacking. But every day I work to do more, and eventually we will succeed


Insight and Contradictions in reagards to Icecrown Citadel damage

More blue feedback on the fate of our gearing strategies…

Over the past few days the blue tracker on mmo has picked up a few more posts on the official forum that give us more clarity with respect to the Chill of the Throne. Essentially, the developers are starting to paint a clear picture of the purpose of the Chill of the Throne, and it’s part in how we as a tanking community will handle the damage that will be pumping out of Icecrown Citadel. I wanted to take some time to discuss the significance of some of these posts, and include some of my thoughts regarding the ramifications of these words. As I have already spent a few days talking about this, I want to make sure that I provide some fresh perspective while stressing that the following is also true:

The way that we geared in Trial of the Grand Crusade will not change with the introduction of Chill of the Throne. Any esoteric debates that the theory crafting community has had over the past few months regarding avoidance versus effective health is strictly with regards to min/maxing. The first duty of any tank is to ensure that they can survive the encounter, once you are confident that your mitigation and health are sufficient for any given situation, you can then apply your personal perspectives on item customization. Progression tanks will stack stamina until they are confident that they can survive the encounter.

A glimpse into Icecrown Citadel

Chill of the Throne

1. Can we expect more unavoidable, devastating melee-based attacks in ICC? If so, what point do they serve from a design stand point?
1. Probably. They serve as challenges that your group needs to overcome by making sure enough healers are focused on the big damage spike and cooldowns (the tank’s or external ones) are used appropriately. If you could avoid those attacks they would need to hit for even harder to compensate. If you could avoid those hits, then sometimes you would just let lucky and make it through the encounter unscathed and other times you’d get gibbed. Believe me; you want those to be unavoidable.

2. Are we finally going to get away from the 2 hits back to back will gib the tank situation we are in now?
2. The idea behind the Chill is to lower boss damage per hit but keep damage per time the same overall. The reason I caveat that statement so much is I know that we’re going to see lots of tanks that die in Icecrown and then ask us to nerf the encounters or buff their tanks. The purpose of these changes is not to prevent tank deaths. You will die. Probably a lot. You are going into the Lich King’s home after all.

These statements give us quite a bit of insight into the reason for the specific avoidance pentaly that they are enforcing upon us, as well as the fact that we can glean some insight into our gearing philosophy debates. It is very interesting to see the thought process that blizzard is using for implementing boss damage during encounters in Icecrown Citadel; and the most important part of all of the above statement lies with in the answer to the second question.

By creating the smoke and mirrors that is the faster, and smaller hits, they have sparked a debate over block value as a potent statistic for our gearing philosophies going forward. If you continue on, you can see that this may be a half truth. Block will be a powerful mitigation talent, however we should not gear towards it by downgrading our gear to previous tiers. Since T9 did not offer much in the realm of block value, we are stuck with what we have. My reasoning behind this is derived from the answer to the second question.

The response included the information that the bosses will deal the exact same damage over time. This means that regardless of avoidance or stamina we will be taking a significant amount of damage. This, at least from my perception, is contrary to the picture that most of the blue posts have painted in the past. They have tried to tell us that the bosses are going to hit for less, so don’t worry about losing 20% avoidance. From this very simple sentence, we can see that we will still be taking a significant amount of damage over time, whether or not this will be avoidable melee damage is yet to be seen.

The mechanics of our gearing philosophy

Effective Health
Well, to be fair most theorycrafting tanks on Tankspot and other places who really understand the concept of EH won’t tell you it’s the only thing that matters, just that it is very important. The problem is that some players who perhaps don’t understand the theorycrafting as well try to take the notion to illogical extremes….

…The discussion got distracted a little with the “GC says avoidance is better than stamina” nonsense, but the above was my original intent. (Source)

This is the essence of our gearing philosophy, and something that every tank should engrain in their minds as the most important thing to remember when it comes to selecting your gear set. A lot of tanks will stop by our site and look for the simplest answer to their gearing question. I will admit that when I first started tanking again, I just went into the old google machine and typed in Paladin Tank Rotation. It took me a while, but I found an easy answer that was not completely correct. If an ill informed tank is looking for the quick and dirty way of gearing, he or she will find many posts saying stack stamina, and nothing else.

This philosophy does not embrace the actual balance that all of the stamina stackers are still striving for. When we as a community talk about the great stamina versus avoidance debate, we are, as I love to reiterate, talking about min/maxing. Some tanks will see this philosophy as an absolute truth, and not a tweak to your gear sets. All of the theory crafters are well aware that there are inherent avoidance stats that come with gear, and that these stats make the gear more or less desirable based on the balance of their gear set. A properly geared stamina heavy tank will still sit at 60% avoidance.


Bosses in Icecrown Citadel and effects of Chill of the Throne
1) Bosses won’t swing faster. More of their swings will hit.
2) Tanks that avoid less are generally easier for healers to heal (provided the numbers aren’t just too great).
3) Tank healing was fun in Sunwell, IMO. Sunwell was challenging. That’s what a lot of players are looking for in the final raid tier. If you don’t like the challenge of healing a tank then I’m not sure why you’d want to be a healer. Now as I’ve said, we’re not saying Icecrown is only for the Sunwell crowd. But I am pretty convinced there are going to be a lot of “Icecrown is too hard because my tank died” posts here when it goes live. (

A quick aside: Point three is painting a pretty picture for the tanks of the community. Sunwell was EXTREMELY difficult and stressful to heal, and was not exactly fun by any means. The challenge that it presented was fun, and the end result of a kill was rewarding, but even after a boss was on farm, your blood pressure was through the roof on any given fight.

This is an interesting counter to the first quote that I posted. They originally said that the bosses will hit for less but the damage over time will stay constant. Now they are telling us that the bosses will not swing any faster, however more hits will land. This statement really does not align with their original communications. This tells me that we still don’t fully understand the mechanics of the fights that they will be throwing at us in Icecrown Citadel, and neither do the developers. I take this to mean that they are still tweaking the fights and making decisions on how to sculpt the encounters.

One thing is for sure though, mmo-champion has posted a few of the skills sets that the bosses have at their disposal during the encounters, and avoidance would not have helped too much if we had it. There is a great deal of magic damage flying around this instance, and it seems that most of what we have been delegating about is physical damage. Below is some information from Maintankadin regarding the incoming damage on a main tank, I believe that this is in alignment with my statements above.

A true look at Icecrown Citadel Damage

Thanks to bluedeep for some of this information regarding the PTR and the bosses current abilities:

Average unblocked melee hit: 15k, slow attack speed.
Average Frost Breath: 30k (occurs every 22 seconds)

Melee damage on this encounter can be considered somewhat trivial. The tank stress test occurs at sub-35% HP where Sindragosa begins stacking a debuff called “Mystic Buffet” every 5 seconds. This increases your magic damage taken by 10% with every stack. Clearly in this case Frost EH stacking will provide the largest increase in survivability.

Festergut, Lord Marrowgar:
Festergut average unblocked melee hit: 16.7k; fast attack speed.
Lord Marrowgar average unblocked cleave: 26k; moderate attack speed.

There are no significant sources of unavoidable damage in these two encounters. The tank stress point of Festergut occurs when he receives a buff that increases attack speed and damage dealt by 90% every ~1.5 minutes. The hard mode of Festergut will probably be the focus of an EH vs avoidance debate. Even though Lord Marrowgar’s cleave is avoidable, my guess is that this encounter will err more on the side of EH given that the hits are so large.

In closing, it comes as no surprise that blizzard is coupling a decrease in avoidance with an increase in magical damage debuffs to increase the difficulty of our next tier of raiding.


Raid for the Cure

I have a follow up to the post I made last Friday regarding some of the Blue posts that were dropped over the weekend in the works, but I wanted to take a moment to give some very important link love. Honors has a lovely post over on his site. Although Honors and I probably share most of the same demographic when it comes to blog readers, If there is even one person that does not read both of our blogs, that is enough for me to write a brief post on this subject.


The Sidhe Devils on Kael’thas (US) are hosting a Raid for the Cure in support of one of their own being diagnosed with Breast Cancer. I will let Big Bear Butt’s blog post speak for itself. The short version of it is as follows:

On Kael’thas (US), a united cross-faction walk across Azeroth will be held on Saturday, November 14th, starting at 2:00 PM Central Time (Kael’thas-US server time).

Members of both Alliance and Horde factions are invited to attend. Pink Mageweave Shirts will be handed out for all walkers, and all levels of characters will be welcome. If you’d like, bring your own shirt, or even make it a formal affair with your Festive Pink Dress!

The walk across Azeroth will not be a race of individuals, it will be a group march to show Julie our love and support.

We do want to help spread the word, and encourage donations in a cheerful way to the Susan G. Komen for the Cure charity, an organization that promotes information and awareness on early detection and treatment of breast cancer, and that supports funding for treatment and research towards a cure.

I normally do not feel that sharing personal real life information on a video game blog is something that is interesting, or even of merit for the target audience, however most, if not all of us will at one time or another have a loved one diagnosed with cancer. I for one have a special place in my heart for any and all people going through this situation. One of my best friends died of Stomach cancer at the age of 22, and her death sent me on my lifes path. I now work for one of the best biotech companies in the world, making anti cancer drugs on a daily basis.

I hope that Julie is able to be treated by our drug, as it is truly a remarkable and life saving substance. And, I hope that she knows that there are thousands of people that are rooting for her, even though we may not know her personal story, we wake up every morning with the passion to push the boundaries of science with the purpose of saving lives.


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