Archive for August, 2009


Tanking finesse – Predictive Movement

Rusted Proto-Drake

Rusted ProtoDrake 1

I’m a bit behind in the times. My guild got their Rusted Proto-Drakes months ago, but because of my work schedule I haven’t been able to run 10 mans with the guild. But, thanks to the advent of the raid extension, we have been clearing most of Ulduar 10 on alts and leaving the last few bosses for mains to get their achievements. It has been a busy weekend so I am going to have to make this one short and sweet.

Predicative versus Reactive Movement –

Anyways, after having the pleasure of single tanking the Yogg-Saraon encounter last night in the ten man with only Thorim down, it got me to thinking about a lesser known mechanic that I use on phase three of Yogg to ensure that I don’t ever have to turn around and face Yogg. The trick involves the concept of the predictive vs. reactive mechanics of npcs. What I mean by this is that there are two different pathing methods that npcs use when reacting to your movement.

The first and most prevalent of these is called reactive movement. This means is that if you run into a mob and then back up to place him in the position that you would like him to stand, the mob will reactively move. He sees you move back and he counters moving forward, following you but stopping short in front of you. This is how most tanks move mobs, bosses, etc. They will run in, aggro the boss and back him up into place.

The second and less utilized method of movement has to do with predictive pathing. Specifically as you are moving, the mob will attempt to predict where you are going to move next and run to that position. This is very useful for the immortal guardians in the third phase of Yogg. If you properly employ the tactics that are necessary to create predictive movement, then you can effectively tank every guardian with out ever having to turn and face Yogg.

This is crucial because even with the best of execution, you will be running low on sanity when you enter the third phase. In order to get a mob to employ predictive pathing, you must strafe. Strafing enables the predictive movement of npcs in the game. All you have to do is stand about 20 yards away from Yogg, with your back to him, but your camera facing him, taunt a mob, and strafe up and left or up and right. The mob will run right past you and he will now be in front of you. This prevents you from taking a nice fat hit to the back and you don’t have to turn around to achieve it.


Guild Management and Its Impact on Longevity

Preface – The restructuring of an Elite Guild

In the past week, the best guild on our server lost a significant chunk of their main raiders. The guild has been around since launch on the same server, and has captured 90 percent of the server firsts that actually matter. They have, for the horde side, always been the guild that can get almost anyone they want with the correct amount of persuasion. At the same time, the demands of a top 50 guild are a bit different. Skill is obviously something that one should have prior to applying to their guild, however the time commitment is the true demand and the difference between great wow players and hard core raiders.

What happened to cause such a exodus of a very stable and successful guild? From the outside looking in, my perception was that they lost too much of their core management. A few Paladin Healers quit the game for good, leaving a vacancy to be filled. The fact that one of the paladins was their raid leader compounded the issue. Then, a few days ago, I noticed that both of their main tanks quit as well. Between the loss of their MTs and their raid leader, the hard core players that only cared about server firsts, what gear they got, and how fast they got it, jumped ship and went to one of the guilds competing for second place on the server.

Regardless of the true reasons for four key people to quit the game, the loss of that much “upper management” is a huge blow to a guild. As an officer in my guild, I ask myself what happened to them, and what can I do to prevent this from happening to us. One of the things that my guild has going for us is that we offer a unique perspective on end game raiding that no other guild on our server can. We clear in two nights what the other guilds on the server do in 4 to 5 nights. Our leadership, planning, and active management allows for this, not to mention the fact that we have some extremely skilled raiders.

Tank Management

This blog isn’t really about guild structure, management, and direction, if you wanted to read about that, you would have clicked on the /officerchat link to the right, instead of reading this. So why do I bring up this anecdote? I believe that the example of guild management and a strategy for raider retention is on a large scale a very important concept to understand. And, if applied properly to your core tanking team, will benefit you guild immensely in the long run. For those of you who are no longer tanks, please excuse the following hubris.

I am fairly certain that there are two main cores to any raiding guild with respect to performance and success. They are the healing core and the tanking core. My job as an officer and a Main Tank is to ensure the proper management of that tanking core so that everyone is playing at the highest level they possibly can. Tanks are a fickle and temperamental group of people in end game raiding guilds. They all think, and are probably right, that they carry the raids through progression. As a result the management of the group as a whole is essential to their opinion of the guild, the officers and the success of the raids. The most important thing to remember, especially if you still think you are back in Vanilla WoW, is that there is no main tank.


This is a novel concept that, if implemented and embraced to the fullest, will make your tanking core a powerful force. Each tank has their strengths and their weaknesses, and you have to leverage them at all times. This means that you need to comprehend what each tanks abilities do, what make them unique, and what make them a powerful asset. This does not just mean you know what icebound fortitude does either, you have to understand what the person behind the computer is great at, and leverage that to its fullest.

Our guild has four tanks that are geared to the teeth. As of two weeks ago, we were all in the top 10 best geared tanks on the server, and our server has 20 plus guilds that farm Ulduar every week. At any given time, we run with a Warrior, a Death knight, and/or a Paladin, and none of us are “THE” main tank, we all are MTs. The concept of compromise and delegation is something that, if embraced, will keep all of your MTs happy and content that they are the focal point of an encounter and the pivotal factor on a clean kill or a wipe.

Understanding the mechanics of fights and incorporating the strengths of each of your tanks in each fight will ensure that each tank feels that they are doing the best job possible. This is once again a battle of opportunity cost when it comes to managing your tanks. Even though a paladin may be the best at something in an encounter, he or she may not be the best choice for the job. You have to understand who is the “least worse” for any given role and give them that assignment. What do I mean by that, well if you have both a deathkinght and a paladin tank that are good at tanking XT, which one of them is the better choice for the adds? Is it easier for a paladin to mitigate all of the add damage, or a dk? This is a simplified example to a difficult problem, but it gives you an idea of how to manage people.

Tank Rotations, Confidence, and Retention of Knowledge

Furthermore, we never really have a “Go-To” tank for hard mode bosses. Sure there are some bosses that are perfect for DKs, and some where paladins shine, you have to ensure that your tanks take turns, so that they feel that they are an essential part of the raid, and not just a trash tanking minion. This rotation benefits the raid as a whole in the long run more than you would think. In my experiences tanking in Pre-BC, I was the first off tank for a guild. Our main tank was always there and always tanked all of the “tank and spank” bosses. One day his work schedule changed and I was standing face to face with Nefarian.

Sure, I had been a tank for a long time, nef was past farm status, and I had all the necessary gear from the instance, however I lacked the confidence. As a result, the encounter was much harder than it should have been. If you build the confidence in each of your tanks equally, you never have to rely on one or even two people to carry the burden of main tanking. This philosophy sets you up for success as well as very smooth transitions when one of your tanks is not present for raids. If all of this is embraced and practiced on a weekly basis you can prevent the larger exodus from the departure of a keystone of your raid.

In the end, your goal as a manager in your guild is to ensure the success and progression of that guild. By ensuring that the collective knowledge of the tanks is not lost due to a departure, you must equally share all of the experiences so that if one part of the core leaves, another can fill the gap and learn from the veteran tanks. This will be one of the keys to consistent and successful progression.


Gems, Sockets, and You…

A detailed discussion on the theory of gem selection…

Last night when I was online, I had a fellow tankadin whisper me and ask me about my gem choices, as I replaced all of my rare gems with epics on patch day. With the advent of epic gems, I had the opportunity to re-evaluate how I wanted to gem my equipment. It got me to thinking about gem selection and the purpose of sockets. When blizzard first put sockets into gear, I was confused as to their motivation to do such a thing. I liked my T2 just the way it was, even though we never really achieved defense cap back in Vanilla. As I grew to understand the purpose of sockets and personalize my gear as I saw fit, I developed a certain strategy when it came to my gem selection.

The different gemming conventions, and the story of three pallies

Currently, there are tanks all around Azeroth that love to gem as much stamina as possible. Even on our beloved MT site, people love to talk about socket bonuses and only socket to the color if the bonus is 6/9/12 stamina, etc. I deviate from this train of thought and I wanted to have a discussion on my philosophies behind gemming that date back to the Sunwell Days.

When I was a healer back in Sunwell, I was part of a three paladin healing core and each of us gemmed differently. It brought a unique strength to the group of paladins as a whole and at the same time identified what each of us truly valued from a healing stand point. In retrospect, as individuals, we may have been inadequate from a theorycrafting stand point, but as a team, we had everything. One pally geared for mp5, one for crit, and I geared for haste. In concert we were ideal, big heals, long heals, and fast heals.

Why am I rambling on about healing in a tankadin blog? I mean come on, all we care about when it comes to healing is that the heals we receive are greater than the damage we take while mobs are alive. Well the story of the three healers and their gemming is a nice little anecdote for how tanks should be gemming and and for a lesser part enchanting their gear. Each paladin as an individual was lacking something. The mp5 healer did not have the crit or healing power that others had, making her heals smaller. However she was always the last one with a mana pool. The crit healer lacked the haste, so he always had a lot of over healing. I myself focused on spell haste, and I had the most HPS for the beginning of the fight, however there were fights that pressed my mana pool and potion timer (remember those, I was an Alchemy whore!).

Gemming your Effective Health Set – Theory and Application

As I have already touched on threat sets, I would like to use our progression set as the example here. When working on creating your effective health set, the combination of our most valued stats, Stamina, Armor, Agility, Dodge, and Parry are just as important to our survival as three holy pallies working in concert. The concept of Effective health and its practical application in gemming philosophy are very powerful, however to be short sighted and only see effective health as health is, in my opinion, a common misconception. Effective health, as explained by a MUCH smarter tank than I, is as follows:

Effective health “…is basically a measurement of how much raw damage a creature has to deal to kill you. It is a measurement of Armor and it’s relation to Stamina…

Effective Health is the measurement of how much breathing room your healers have to keep you alive assuming all other factors fail — assuming you do not avoid or block attacks or have a mana shield active. Effective Health is important for tanking heavy hitting creatures because of Murphy’s Law — if you can have long strings of not Dodging an attack, it will definitely happen. Raid tanking, ultimately, is about stability.” – Ciderhelm

To only increase your effective health by stacking stamina is to overlook the other key factors that contribute to your survival, namely armor, and to a lesser extent pure avoidance, and shield block value. You have to remember that effective health is a theory and a concept, not a holistic approach. To overlook your ability to prevent damage and as a result save your healers mana and blood pressure, is a bad judgement call.

With these key elements in mind, I like to balance my gems to ensure that I am working on creating the best overall effective health possible, which includes gemming for survival and not being a mana sponge. By increasing your avoidance, armor and health at the same time, you not only increase your effective health, but also reduce the amount of mana needed to heal you. The less damage you take, the less heals you need, and the more mana your healers have to drop big heals on you when you need them.

It is crucial to understand that in a pure effective health set, gearing stamina and armor in concert is the most powerful thing that you can do to prevent a tank death. Do not neglect one for the other. However this is only for Effective health. In terms of the total package, there are other factors that play into a tank that is fun and easy to heal, who holds great threat, and has the survivability to tank new encounters.

One other essential thing to take into account is that you always want to gem to the pieces strengths, not what you want the overall outcome of your gear set to be. The main reason for this is the fact that you will be using pieces in multiple gear sets, EH, Avoidance, threat, block, etc. and you do not want to just optimize for what you are wearing for one set, but for all of the sets. If you enhance the strengths of a specific piece of gear, it will always be the best choice for that slot for a given role.

Agility or Dodge?

In closing, I would like to address the decision of agility or dodge when gemming in 3.2. With the nerf to dodge, Agility has become an equal stat to dodge. Below are two links that will give you some reference to the theory and discussion around the balancing of avoidance sats and how Agility has surpassed dodge as the best EH choice for a red slot:

Some Preliminary Conclusions… on Avoidance in 3.2
Agility vs. Dodge, The Debate Rages On

Long story short, to increase my effective health via armor and dodge, and my threat via crit, I have used 10 Agility 15 Stamina gems wherever I would have considered a dodge gem in the past. Furthermore, when you are trying to evaluate what gem would be best for you, you have to take into account not only the benefits you will get from the increase in stats, but also the opportunity cost of each stat it self. The stamina gem may give you the most effective health or at least raise your health pool, but the piece may be better suited for a threat set, or an avoidance set. In these cases, the best opportunity cost for the socket may be an agility gem or a hit gem.

In the end the decision is yours, just  make sure you choose wisely!


Trial of The Crusade Loot

Last night my guild did as we always do on a Tuesday night at 6pm, open up invites, select our 25 man raid, and head off to our progression instance. Now to say that Trial of the Crusade is progression is only to indicate that there was a boss that we had never killed before in there, however the difficulty level of Lord Jaraxxus was just as disappointing as the Northrend Beasts. One shotting new content isn’t really what I signed up for Blizzard!

On a different note, as tanking officer I was faced with a difficult dilemma in gear distribution last night. The Trophy of the Crusade gives us our Tier 9 (item level 245) gear, and deciding who gets the token has become a bit of a puzzle. Our guild has always and will always gear main tanks first. I have never really had more than 1000 dkp, and am usually in the negative for most of the time, however I am fourth overall on earned. Everyone above me and a few below have 3000 plus dkp.

For the first time in our guilds history the tanks were not given priority on tier pieces, and not because we dont think they deserve them or that they are worthy upgrades, because they are, but because both MTs took some time off this past week for personal reasons and are behind in gathering the necessary 45 and 75 Badges of Triumph needed to purchase these items. Most of our raiders have been doing the heroic daily every day to get as many badges as possible.

I also have to make the decision now of looking over the sweet ring and nice avoidance libram for a tier 9 piece. What has a better opportunity cost, the T9 upgrade in shoulders, to get rid of the SBV / SBR T8 ones I have on currently, or the ring?

I personally don’t care much for the new system of badges and tokens = gear. The lack of availability in conjunction with the increased number of items that are bought with them makes gearing for progression difficult. Part of me just wants to wait for the hard mode in three weeks, but part of me knows I need to farm the daily heroic as much as possible so that i can at least get a few more pieces of iLevel 245 gear before we walk into the heroic instance.

Speaking of item level 245 gear, I picked up some sweet loot last night on both the Northrend Beasts and Lord Jaraxxus!

Forlorn Barrier and Dawnbreaker Sabatons

The difficult part of picking up these pieces is how they fit into my sets. As I have learned in the past, side-grades are more often than not upgrades for another set, in this case EH. I also lost a Dragon’s Eye gem by replacing my crafted boots. My plan is to pick up the T9 shoulders next week and socket them with a 51 stam gem, but until then, do I run with only two DE’s, or do I waste a Dragon’s Eye gem for the second half of Ulduar?


A theory on gearing – the threat set

As I was driving to work this morning, I was trying to think of a topic that would work well as a follow up post to my gear choices post. At first I did not think that back to back gear theory posts would be the best idea, however after receiving my first comment, /cheer, I realized that there were some holes in my post and I should jump on this as an opportunity to take an in depth look on how I set up my threat set.
The two most important things that you must understand when assembling a threat set is what is the end goal of the compilation of gear that you will eventually tag as your threat set, and when is it suppose to be used. For me, the understanding of when is a precursor to the what. From my point of view, and my experience of gear swapping through a farmed instance with hints of progression (in my case Ulduar with hard modes), a threat set is used for three things, any trash that can not squash you like a bug, farmed bosses where your dps can let loose on auto pilot, and hard modes with time limits.

Lets take a look at gear from each of these perspectives and understand what is the limiting factor when it comes to threat:

Trash – The essence of a trash pull in current raiding conditions is usually instant balls out dps (AoE or single target). When I raid Ulduar on my hunter, I usually notice that by the end of my opening rotation, even with a misdirect, I am still past 100% on the threat meters when playing with mediocre tanks. This is even more pronounced when you pull an AoE pack. Depending on your progression, AoE packs can be almost any pull in your instance, or set packs that you know are not dangerous. Either way, initial snap aggro is essential to saving that warlock with an itchy trigger finger (I know every guild has a few).
Farmed bosses – When you are tanking farmed bosses, it means that everyone knows their job, the bosses abilities and what to expect. Specifically you know if and when you need to blow cooldowns, and the healers know when spike damage is coming. From this perspective, dps will be goings balls to the wall, and you will have to compensate with an overall increase in threat generation.

DPS Races – Some DPS races are the Razorscale achievement, Hodir Hard Mode, Yogg speed kill, etc. These bosses add either the crunch on your dps to push the envelope of threat, or the added buffs that come from the encounter to increase dps significantly (such as Hodir). In these instances, the difference between your first kill and a wipe is usually how much threat you can pump out (as long as your dps is doing their job right). On my guilds first Hodir hard mode kill, our number 1 dps was at 15k dps, that is a lot of threat, or a lot of salvations. I prefer the former of the two.

Hit Rating and Threat –

With this being said, the most important part of the “encounter” that is trash is the initial pull and snap aggro. When building a threat set, or more specifically a trash set, your number one concern is that you make sure your initial moves hit the targets. Therefore, Hit rating is by far the most important stat you can have. If your first avenger shield or hammer of the righteous misses, you will be set up for failure, running towards that warlock, slamming your taunts hoping they are not resisted.
So our goal is to be hit capped, but what is hit cap? Well, 8% hit or 263 hit rating will ensure that your attacks are not missed. It is important to understand that 8% hit only pushes the misses off of the attack table, and not the dodges or parries. In order to increase your ability to land an attack and avoid a dodge or parry you have to increase your expertise. This is fairly easy for a paladin to do because you have two options that will instantly push your expertise to 16: Glyph of Seal of Vengeance (10 Expertise) and Combat Expertise (6 Expertise, 8th tier of the Protection Tree). You only have to get 10 more Expertise to hit the soft cap of 26.
Now that we have established that if your Avengers Shield and Hammer of the Righteous deal damage to your targets, and you are tabbing through to establish aggro on all of them, what is the progression of what you need to have great threat:

Strength, Stamina and Block Value –

As stated before strength is a very powerful stat to have on your gear. It increases you attack power and block value. Both of these increase your ability to produce threat, and to a lesser degree, decrease incoming damage. The more attack power you have the harder you will hit, the more damage you will do, and in turn the more threat you will produce.
Stamina increases your spell power via Touched by the Light. This is an added bonus because, lets face it, the more health you have, the easier it is to stay alive. It also increases your damage done by judgements, which as of 3.2, no longer can be dodged blocked or parried. This is a very powerful threat mechanic because it has a larger range and is a guaranteed hit if you are geared correctly.
Block value to a lesser degree is also translated into threat, vial Shield of Righteousness. This is a small amount of threat gain, as blizzard has reduced the amount of damage contributed by SBV from 130% to 100%. This is still our number one snap aggro ability that is not a taunt.

Selecting Gear – Individual choices and the holistic outcome

The way that I personally set out to create a threat set was to select the pieces that most notably had the attributes that have been discussing above and then filled in the rest with supporting pieces. What that means is that I equipped as much tanking plate gear with hit, and strength to achieve the hit cap of 263 rating. Once this was achieved, I ensured that I met all of the other criteria necessary of a tank while maximizing then amount of strength, attack power, and expertise.
Understanding specifically that gemming and enchanting can be a huge help in achieving this philosophy will make your life so much easier when it comes to reaching your goals of creating a threat set. You always want to gem your threat pieces to augment their strengths, not just ensure that you have your token stamina, defense or agility/dodge gems in them.
You should have a second helm with the eternal earthsiege diamond in it for the increased defense and block value, Accuracy to a weapon is a great increase as well as armsman to gloves and icewalker to boots. As long as you have a descent health pool and you have over 540 defense, you should concentrate on getting as close to 263 hit rating as possible and boost your strength, AP, and SBV as much as possible. Remember, trash doesn’t hit for 20k, your healers should be able to keep you alive. Swapping trinkets and rings is also a must. I actually use dps rings in my threat set because I am over the defense minimum with out them.

Obtaining the gear –

Finally, I wanted to discuss how to obtain this gear. About two months ago I wrote a very long and extensive post about tanking on my guild forums, some of which made it to this blog. This post was designed to jump start some of our guilds tanks into picking up items that they habitually pass on. It is your duty as a MT to pick up gear even if it isn’t for your “main set” as you should be building many different sets for different situations. If your guild is progression centric, and allows for MT gearing, you do not have an issue, pick up everything that you can (while taking into consideration your fellow tanks). If you have to deal with competing with your healers and dps for tier tokens, then you may want to focus on those first, however, it is always beneficial to pick up that side grade if it looks like it is beneficial for another set. I passed on a few pieces that never dropped again and I regretted it every day.

Back to Basics – Gear Sets

Gear choices – the gear set that you wear is dependent on the content that you are tanking –

This may seem like a very simple concept but too many tanks get caught up in making a set that is only good for certain content. What I mean by this is that as your progresses through a new instance, your priorities on gear itemization change drastically. At the beginning of a new instance, in a type of raiding most people call progression raiding, tanks want to gear for effective health and avoidance.

Effective health is really a theory and combination of stats more than the number that you have on your health bar. It is a combination of your Armor, mitigation, and health pool. “This is basically a measurement of how much raw damage a creature has to deal to kill you. It is a measurement of Armor and it’s relation to Stamina. Effective Health is the measurement of how much breathing room your healers have to keep you alive assuming all other factors fail — assuming you do not avoid or block attacks or have a mana shield active. Effective Health is important for tanking heavy hitting creatures because of Murphy’s Law — if you can have long strings of not Dodging an attack, it will definitely happen. Raid tanking, ultimately, is about stability.”

Avoidance stats are as simple as they sound, the ability to complete miss an attack. For the purposes of our discussion, that means the percentage of dodge and parry that a tank has (both of these stats now suffer diminishing returns). When starting out in an instance, prioritizing these two “stats” are what tanks should strive to do. At a certain point the raid begins to out gear the instance and avoidance and effective health become less of a priority for tanks. At this point, threat and mitigation are key priorities. As your raid becomes more and more geared, the tanks will start running into problems with performance. As the abilities of the healers and dps increase with the volume of gear that your raid soaks up, the necessity for avoidance and effective health gear drops substantially.

This drop in need for avoidance gear is mirrored by an increase in the need for threat gear. As the dps out put of the raid increases, and you start attempting dps hard mode bosses, threat becomes an issue. The accumulation of both sets of gear simultaneously will substantially improve your raids ability to progress faster. For paladins threat gear is anything with Strength, Stamina, and Shield Block Value.

The most obvious stat is strength, as it gives you the following:

1 strength = 2 attack power (AP) = 0.14 dps weapon (white) damage.

2 strength = 1 block value before talents, 1.3 block value with the Redoubt talent.

Shield block value is the modifier by which the Shield of Righteousness spell gains damage. And Stamina effects your spell power through the talent: Touched by the Light (rank 3): Increases your spell power by an amount equal to 30% of your Stamina and increases the amount healed by your critical heals by 30%.Why AP and spell power combined? Because your judgements are affected by both as seen below:

Judging your Seal of Vengeance does the following: Unleashing this Seal’s energy will deal [1 + 0.22 * SPH + 0.14 * AP] Holy damage to an enemy, increased by 10% for each application of Holy Vengeance on the target.


Back to Basics – the 969 rotation

Rotation of Abilities, their significance and their role in threat, and mitigation –

The first question I asked myself when I was approached by the other officers to become a prot pally is what abilities do I use and in what combination. After a bit of research, the answer was simple, efficient, and effective. Any prot pally that does two minutes of research finds that we use what is called a 969 rotation. What this means is that you have certain abilities (3) that have 8-9 second cool downs, and certain abilities (2) that have 6 second cool downs. Taking into account that the global cool down is 1.5 seconds, this equates into a very efficient rotation with absolutely NO downtime in use of abilities.

The rotation consists of five abilities. Protection paladins use each of these abilities on a very specific and measured time table. The abilities are holy shield (8s cd), hammer of the righteous (6s cd), judgement (9s cd with 1 point in improved judgment), Shield of Righteousness (6s cd), consecrate (8s cd). Because each of our abilities cool downs is close to a multiple of the global cool down, you can base your rotation off of it, meaning that if you open up in the order I listed them, all you have to do once you have performed your first 5 abilities is hit the button that is not on cd and you will have your optimal rotation, e.g. 9696969696969.

This ideal rotation works wonders for consistent and effective threat per second. You have a holy damage ability that is used every 1.5 seconds continuously with out fail, as well as DoTs that are ticking continuously on the enemy as well. This plays a very important role in the ability of a protection paladin to gain an increasing amount of threat against the mob that is being attacked.

The only ability that I would like to discuss in terms of “significance” when it comes to the unique nature of a protection paladin is holy shield. The reason this ability is of more significance than the others is because it provides paladins a way to be “unhittable” 100% of the time that they are fighting a mob. This is quite significant because it increases our ability to mitigate all incoming physical damage by an amount equal to our shield block value. This makes block value exceptionally good for trash packs and mobs that hit for less but hit very fast.

Definition: Unhittable – the ability to Block, Dodge, Parry, or Miss any and all incoming attacks.


  • What is this nonsense? HoPo and a total overhaul. It's going to be a long weekend of playing around.. 7 years ago